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Author Topic: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?  (Read 6196 times)

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Offline Kwiatek

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 07:51:28 PM »
Couldn't be. Typhoon have 2 stage supercharger changed manually.

BTW there will be class and FM fix for Typhoon due to some issue with pylons and reduced ab. 250 kg with version lightened ( class problem).
 It will be corected in next patch.

Offline Ace-Rimmer

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2010, 04:24:36 PM »
Hi guys , as someone who has studied the Typhoon for a while I thought you might be interested in a few bits of info toward the flight modelling?

in regard to the Typhoons maneuverability, the thick wing foisted on the aircraft by Camm had one unexpected bonus for an alledged high speed interceptor in that it gave the aircraft considerable manueverability at sea level, there are numerous combat reports where the pilots stated they were able to draw lead on an enemy aircraft during a turning fight, one of considerable interst in this matter is from SqdnLdr Desmond Scott who found himself in a constant turning fight at sea level with a FW190 on 24/6/43 the two pilots continued to chase each other round fighting against blackout with Scott slowly nibbling away at the gap untill before he could get a lead and fire the FW190 "wobbled" and spun in, Scott also spun just after, his wingman later stating he span upward thereby saving his life as Scott momentarily blacked out in the spin!

there are numerous reports of the Typhoon being the only UK fighter that was able at that time to catch the FW190 tip and run raiders both in a dive and in a tail chase, once again this is at low level, the general
consensus being you simply should'nt attempt to fight in a Typhoon over 10000ft

it would seem that although the Typhoon was designed as a high sped interceptor its thick wing made it unsuitable in this role at anything other than low level, but ironically  this wing is what made the aircraft such a success later on as a ground attack fighter bomber, it was however quite successfull in the fighter role when chasing the low level raiders!
regards
Mike.

Offline 606_Tempik

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 08:29:52 PM »
After two years is typhoon very buged.

1. Second stage supercharger dont work. Is posible changing 1 or 2, but second stage dont work "in engine" and power is weak.
2. Radiator dont work. Radiator dont cooling. With open rad is plane slow, but engine is still hot
3. Typhoon 42 and Typhoon 43 have same performance (performance is weird - for 42-, too slow at sea level, too fast at 10 000feet and too slow 15000+. late version is wrong all)
4. Bomb pylons, rocket pylons, full or empty have same effect to max speed.
5. rollrate is very optimistic
6. AoA is very low.
7. 42 version had problem with high speed destruction of tail.

In UP was Typhoon better working, than UP3. What wrong?

Offline StG77_HaDeS

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 11:34:16 PM »
@ 606_Tempik

I'll check it and if necessary revert to UP's previous FM.

:drinks:

Offline Schwarze_Acht

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 02:43:47 AM »
Well... before everybody run about the settings of the Tiffys.. the rollrate have to be stopped by an chronometer and not by "personal feeling", so if you have some complaints about it PLEASE push forward some evidence about it.. ;)
Sorry but we really can't give the Tiffy a rollrate like an Extra 300 ....

 :drinks:

BTW: the only one which could have a chance against an FW was the Hurricane, the Tiffy was chanceless due to wing geometrical... if someone have another prooved historical log about that feel free to publish it.

Offline 606_Tempik

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 06:53:42 PM »
I dont want roll rate like Extra. My points is Bugs, no my wisch. Now have Typhie roll rate too good.
BTW your BTW is joke, right? :)

Offline Schwarze_Acht

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 09:12:05 PM »
Quote
BTW your BTW is joke, right? :)

 :whistle:

Offline Kryten

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2012, 12:16:07 AM »
BTW: the only one which could have a chance against an FW was the Hurricane, the Tiffy was chanceless due to wing geometrical... if someone have another prooved historical log about that feel free to publish it.

Schwartze,
im afraid this is completely incorrect, the Typhoon was used in the low level fighter role up to 1944 on a regular basis, in 1942 it was one of the few RAF aircraft capable of catching the FW190 raiders attacking the S coast of Britain and they scored numerous kills in interceptions and dogfights over the channel.
between Oct 42 and June43 42 FW190 and 15 BF109 were claimed by the Typhoon wing operating over the channel from hastings to manston!

It was also used for "Ranger" operations into france the RAF version of the Free Hunt.

the wings limitation was high up, which when you add in the poor supercharger performance over 12000ft this resulted in an aircraft that lost performance quite badly as the altitude incresed, down low it was a capable plane , was able to fight both the 109 and 190 at low level and was faster than both down low!

the thick wing that limited the aircrafts performance high up gave the tiffie huge amounts of lift, the aircraft was cleared for 2x500lb bombs in 43 and 2x1000lb bombs in early 44 whilst still operating from fighter command strips. it was re-roled as a fighter bomber in the tactical air force from 44 because faster and more capable spits and Mustangs were becoming available to fighter command.


Offline Schwarze_Acht

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 05:48:07 AM »
OK Kryten, ou did not catch it  :sarcastic:

Offline Kryten

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 12:15:11 PM »
Apologies if you were joking Schwarze, I hear so many bizzare and offf the wall statements I never know if people are being serious anymore!
 :blush2:

Offline Schwarze_Acht

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2012, 04:16:59 PM »
Hey no problem, in fact it was written in a serious manner, but with a little grin on my face, which you could not see..  ;)
But talking serious now..  ;)
Do you have any written information in a book with technical data about them? I only have books about german planes  :D
If yes, could you scan it and send over e-mail?

Maibe comparing one information with the other we could change the behaviour a little....

 :drinks:

Offline 606_Tempik

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2012, 04:23:36 PM »

Offline StG77_HaDeS

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2012, 06:10:19 PM »
Grant has made some nice graphs there. We will keep it as reference.

I believe the previous FMs were more close.

:drinks:

Offline Kryten

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2012, 06:47:06 PM »
Hey no problem, in fact it was written in a serious manner, but with a little grin on my face, which you could not see..  ;)
But talking serious now..  ;)
Do you have any written information in a book with technical data about them? I only have books about german planes  :D
If yes, could you scan it and send over e-mail?

Maibe comparing one information with the other we could change the behaviour a little....

 :drinks:

I have speed data etc, but most of that is on the link that was posted above, what I have real trouble finding is technical data as to flight charecteristics, rate of roll at differing speeds , or time from say 250 to 350mph for instance, this kind of data which would be very usefull does'nt seem to be available?

I have the same issue when researching the Mosquito, lots of data on all out speed very little on flight dynamics, I had to dig up a video to assess the aircrafts roll rate which I posted on another thread, but that was on one engine and gives no clue to weight or airspeed during the maneuver so can only be seen as a guide!

I had a discussion with a gent at Goodwood a few years ago who was a development engineer at Hawker, the discussion came around to the Typhoon and the tail failure, apparently intitial failures on early aircraft were caused by balance issues with the elevators causing a failure of the rear transport joint, which were fixed, however occasionally tails were still lost, even up to the end of the war, it was not understood what caused this untill after the war during the supersonic developments, the elevators went into compressibility during a high speed dive and if the pilot had the stick pulled right back whilst recovering from the dive the elevators sent a massive load reversal through the rear fuselage when the speed reduced and the elevators regained effectiveness, a very specific set of circumstances but it did happen to a few!

Now thats all very interesting, and straight from the horses mouth, but, I can find no information that corroborates the statement, and thats the frustrating part, so anything that is done to a flight model without absolute information is really guesswork?

 I have many quotes on flight behaviour from the pilots view, but these are subjective and give no clues as to fuel loads, actual speeds, altitudes etc.
If I find anything I will let you guys know, but I'm not optimistic this information is even out there any more!

regards
Mike

Offline Schwarze_Acht

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2012, 10:57:50 PM »
Supposed that...
Yes its very difficult to get some information about that all, in fact a lot of those flight reports are somewhere lost in an dusty large archive somewhere.
I have the same problem with the ME series, even knowing people in EADS which tried to grant me access to the old Messerschmidt archives, no success till now..
There are rumours about ME 262 and other early jet pilots which reported really strage behaviors from the plane passing a certain moment of speed, with the airspeed indicator over full speed, after a while everything was ok again with the flight controls keeping the dive
It seems those pilots COULD have breaked the sonic barrier and as those planes was not made for such speed (even the air compressing effect was still unknown).
Today this effect is minimized, but then they had no clue about what happen when you pass the sonic barrier, in fact if you don't , let's say, go quickly through it the plane shakes and controls are poor if the airfoil, specially the nose part is not made for supersonic flight.

It really thrills me, but without holding a real flight report in my hand there is no prove for this.

The "Family day" at the Messerschmidt Stiftung is getting closer, I will try there to get in touch with the people from the "upper class"  ;)
As it's only for EADS People and their friends and family these flight day weekend is really for a small group of persons compared to a normal airshow, it MUST be possible  :D
There is also a posting somewhere here asking about the strange behaviour from the BF 109 series here tending to climb while trimming is neutral.
The best thing is ask a living 109 Pilot, so I am counting the days  :D

 :drinks:

Offline Hisl

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2012, 12:26:09 PM »





There is also a posting somewhere here asking about the strange behaviour from the BF 109 series here tending to climb while trimming is neutral.

 :drinks:

Not the Bfs have this strange behaviour, but the UP-Spitfires. It would be nice to take note a little bit more to the red planes in future UP Versions.     

Offline JG54_Emil

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2012, 12:55:17 PM »
The best thing is ask a living 109 Pilot, so I am counting the days  :D

You lucky bastard!!!
If you meet one or two of them on the family day ask then if they also have any FW190 experience and can compare between 109 and 190.
As far as I read and heard the 190 was said far more maneuverable than a 109 and some FW190 pilots say the 190 would outturn a 109 generally.
This would make everything much more different than what we have now in IL2.
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Offline Kryten

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2012, 01:44:06 PM »
Problem is without any hard evidence such as test reports any info from pilots is anecdotal at best, if a pilot says the 190 is more maneuverable than the 109 do you reduce the 109 maneuverability or increase the 190 maneuverability because that could end up in complete confusion and imbalance!


Offline Kryten

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Re: FM for Typhoon Ib and Ib late ?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2012, 01:45:26 PM »
Many real performance test is here http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/typhoontest.html ;-)


theres a chart here detailing roll rates at different speeds for several aircraft--
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

 

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